In this transcript for this YouTube video, I talk with Thai activist Shane Bhatla about nonbinary identity, disability justice, neurodiversity and some of the work that they do at Equal Asia Foundation in Bangkok. This was recorded in December 2022 after the ILGA Asia Conference, and we look back at the Disability and Nonbinary caucuses at the conference. And discuss the current fights for trans/nonbinary rights in Thailand.
Kayley: Hello and welcome to Bangkok, and thank you for joining me and my good friend Shane Bhatla for a discussion about nonbinary and trans folks here in Thailand.
Shane: So we’re going to be talking about nonbinary identity. We’re going to be also talking about disability justice, and neurodiversity and some of the work that we do at Equal Asia Foundation where I work.
Kayley: Hello, Shane.
Shane: Hello, Kayley.
Kayley: Nice to see you. Okay, so Shane and I are old friends, and we’re going to do an interview updating an interview I did with Shane about three years ago, my first trip to Bangkok.
Shane: That was a very long time ago, too.
Kayley: I know. We met at Stranger Bar.
Shane: We did!
Kayley: We partied, and I met a lot of the LGBT community here through Shane, who’s an awesome activist.
Shane: Thank you.
Kayley: So we’re going to run through some questions. And first I just want to ask what’s your identity and your pronouns for everyone here?
Shane: So I’m Shane, as you already know, I use he, they pronouns, and I identify as nonbinary and trans masculine. Yeah.
Kayley: Okay. So I understand you identify as nonbinary, and that is an identity that some people don’t always grasp right now. Was that difficult coming out and what’s that journey been like for you?
Shane: It’s definitely been very confusing because it’s been difficult to grasp an identity that doesn’t culturally already exist or [there is] vocabulary for, in Thailand specifically. So understanding what that identity actually meant for me, or what nonbinary meant for me, was a little difficult. But there was also this sense of having to conform to this idea of what masculinity felt like. And so as a trans masculine person, it felt like I needed to be super hyper masculine. So it didn’t feel like I was nonbinary, but more like a trans man. But as like I’ve explored what nonbinary feels [like], what nonbinary is, what trans masculine is, I’ve noticed that I’m more leaning towards not the idea of “man,” but the idea of “masculinity” in a nonbinary sense.
Kayley: Right, and do you think there’s growing understanding of nonbinary here in Thailand?
Shane: In the last three, four years, a lot of vocabulary and understanding of what nonbinary is has popped up, and even in Thai, even in the local language. Before that, we didn’t really understand how to communicate our thoughts around it with people who are local. But now, because more and more people are coming out and identifying as nonbinary or coming out as and being comfortable identifying as nonbinary, we’re able to speak about it more and we’re able to kind of discuss the ideas and the concept more in the local language.
Kayley: So we were at the nonbinary caucus at the ILGA Asia [Conference]. ILGA is a large international LGBT organization. How else would we just describe them?
Shane: They’re essentially a regional network that is for lesbian gay, bisexual, transgender. And now we’ve also added nonbinary to the thing, which only happened at ILGA Asia this year. So that’s a big, big win for us, but that’s what they stand for.
Kayley: And at the nonbinary caucus, there was a very long discussion about when in other countries, there’s been understanding of genders that go beyond just male assigned male at birth, masculine, or female, female assigned at birth feminine, that there are indigenous gender identities, but those identities may not be under the frame now understood as nonbinary.
Kayley: So here in Thailand, especially to outsiders, there’s a lot of scholarship and questions around third gender identities, like, if I can use the term in a not so impolite way, “Kathoey,” or “Tom,” like tomboy. So how is that distinct as indigenous identities from nonbinary as an identity?
Shane: It’s very interesting because culturally, Kathoey and Tom have existed, these identities have existed for so long, and they have been very culturally and socially accepted, too. But there’s also the sense that those identities can identify as nonbinary, but they can also identify as in those binary genders that already exist. Right. I’ve noticed that more folks who already identify with “Tom” are coming out and identifying as nonbinary. But I’ve also noticed that some of them use that as like a transition to kind of going to coming out as a trans man
Kayley: But go through the identity of Tom. And the Tom community, which is a rather large community?
Shane: It is a very large community. Like ten years ago, 15 years ago, a lot of trans men would identify as Tom because we didn’t have the vocabulary of trans men or even trans. So we would identify as like, Tom, or Kathoey, which would be socially a third gender. However, that’s changing. The social idea of what “third gender” is, is no longer the same anymore.
Kayley: Yeah, a lot of the scholarship that was read in the West would have been like Megan Sinnot’s book “Toms and Dees” or then later, Andy Matzner and LeeRay Costa came out with a book interviewing Kathoey-identified students at Chiang Mai University. So that’s a lot of what Western scholars and academia has been exposed to. But I think things have really shifted even since those books were published in the early 2000s, which is when I first heard about these identities. And now with the shifting understanding of nonbinary, there’s a little bit more fluidity or change, which I’d love to go into so much more, but I think it’s like it’s a whole series.
Shane: Totally is!
Kayley: Okay, you’re a disability advocate, and you also helped organize the disability session at ILGA Asia. So what’s your journey been like being a disability advocate here?
Shane: It’s been bumpy and chaotic. When I first started out, or even started understanding myself and internally what disability meant for me and what even neurodiversity meant for me, it took a lot to kind of dismantle my own internal ableism because I noticed that it was very deep-rooted by the society around me. There was this idea of “grind culture” and this idea of like, I have to work, I have to be on top of my shit all the time. And that was, I think, the most difficult part of taking a step back and realizing that “grind culture” was incredibly toxic and I did not have the capacity for it. So I think eventually dismantling the ableism that I was facing internally in myself, I was able to kind of accept what disability felt like for m. And eventually go into that field of work, and use that as also an advocacy tool.
Kayley: Do you feel being disabled and neurodivergent is tied into your identity with your queerness at all? Are there any connections there?
Shane: Absolutely. In fact, at the Spoonies [Disability] chat session [at ILGA Asia], we spoke about how two in five trans and nonbinary people are actually either disabled or neurodiverse. So it’s very hard to kind of ignore that intersectionality because the statistics backs the idea that we have to talk about disability when we’re talking about trans people because we’re disproportionately affected. Right? So I think that was like a big part of kind of how that helped. So even understanding my own neurodiversity and being someone who has ADHD, and also is queer, I think that was very interesting because I think I like to use the word “Neuroqueer” because I think there is a very deep connection in neurodivergent people being able to accept their own neurodiversity and then in turn being able to accept their other identities and other intersectionalities that they have.
Kayley: Yeah, as I play with my fidgety pride necklace, like you talking about neurodivergence, it’s like, oh, I have a fidget thing around my neck I can play with.
Shane: That’s a stimming toy!
Kayley: Right, it’s a stimming toy. But it’s been a journey for me as well where I didn’t realize how much I had in common with other neurodivergent folks and that I work with the Autistic Women Nonbinary network. I don’t want to make this about me. I’ve made other videos which I can link to about autism and my experiences and the work I do. But for me, definitely part of my journey of learning community that I felt safe in with nonbinary folks and trans folks was with the disability community and neurodivergent community and autistic community. So it’s been really cool because we’ve both kind of gone on that journey a bit together. I think both of us have really come into our neurodivergent community and identity in the last few years. Shane: Yeah, absolutely. I figured out during COVID that I’m autistic and then I come back to Thailand.
Shane: It’s almost like neurodiverse people can spot each other from a mile away. And I totally agree with it.
Kayley: And we bonded pretty quickly because of that. So just to talk briefly about dating, which is a really interesting topic because you have a lot of intersecting identities here. You identify as polyamorous and then you also identify as a relationship anarchist, which I’d love for you to help define, but I understand it broadly as a relationship style that challenges or tries to do away with hierarchies in your friendships and relationships. So do you want to talk like briefly? Just describe relationship anarchist and polyamory and what that means to you? So relationship anarchy is essentially like a non-conforming concept of how relationships work and non-hierarchical concept of how relationships work. It essentially means that there’s no sense of importance for one person over the other person, or for your partner or your friend, and all dynamics are just that, and exist between just the two of you, the way that you want. And that’s it.
Kayley: Has it been difficult dating here in Thailand and specifically Bangkok as someone with all your identities?
Shane: It has been so difficult. The dating pool is already so small just because I’m an immigrant BIPoC trans person. And then you add disability and autism and neurodiversity, and then on top of that you add polyamory and relationship anarchy. It’s a lot. So the dating pool is very small. But I’ve also noticed that I personally look out for T4T relationships.
Kayley: What’s T4T? Just for our viewers.
Shane: “Trans for Trans.” So I often look out for Trans for Trans dynamics because I feel like other trans people are more likely to understand the different things that I’m going through in my own life, but also understand the different intersectionalities that I already have.
Kayley: Yeah, okay. I mean, there’s some great videos and articles about T4T. I think it’s becoming more visible and vocal in the trans community, of like there’s a certain attraction and bond, like I’d say trans and I’d say gender diverse people, nonbinary people, confide with each other, and often leads to very healthy relationships and helping each other validate and feel strong.
Shane: Yeah, absolutely. It’s almost like there’s a sense of bonding just over the experiences, the experiences that we’ve gone through. And it’s like just knowing how the other person has lived their life and understanding what the trauma and the difficulties and the challenges that the other person has gone through. And I think that’s incredible.
Kayley: Also, trans people are kind of hot, right?
Shane: They are very hot. It’s not even the androgyny of it, but it’s just the idea that they are trans! I wouldn’t say because they are trans, but it’s the idea that cis people are difficult to deal with sometimes and just having a trans partner or like a trans lover is hot.
Kayley: I just remember I saw Julia Serano once give a talk in 2007 and she was like, yeah, I find trans women so attractive because they’ve had to fight so long and so hard against testosterone, to be as feminine and as beautiful as they are. So I appreciate that.
Kayley: So I last interviewed you three years ago for my blog, TransWorldView, and I’m going to cross-post it there. But since then I’m focused on YouTube and I wanted to follow up with you because not only have you come into your identity in more ways and been this awesome activist presenting at ILGA Asia, you’re also the Associate. Director at the Equal Asia Foundation, which I understand is an organization that’s advocating for a lot of intersecting identities that big LGBT orgs don’t focus on.
Kayley: What’s been your journey coming to Equal Asia Foundation and working there as Associate Director?
Shane: So I think the last time we had this interview, I wasn’t with Equal Asia Foundation, but now I’ve started working with Equal Asia Foundation. It’s been about three years since I’ve been working with them. Equal Asia Foundation is essentially a think tank and an innovations incubator. What that means is we try to future scope issues that are going to come up in, let’s say, a decade or two decades, and we try to work on those issues so that we can find solutions for issues that are going to come up. So that’s what we do. Right? It’s been a bumpy ride because I think it’s very difficult being disabled and trying to understand your capacity and how much capacity you have to give to a fight like this, because it takes a lot from you. So I think that’s been the most difficult part of it. But once I found a way to communicate and was on the same page with my colleagues at Equal Asia Foundation, it was great. I absolutely love the work that we do and I absolutely love how revolutionary the work is, um, because it’s not something that anyone else is doing. It’s something that no one has done before. We are not afraid to make mistakes. And it shows because we go in and we go in hard.
Kayley: And so I’ve worked with Ryan [Figuereido], who’s the Executive Director, Executive Director and Founder, and I know some of the issues that you’ve looked at. Is like, how is climate change affecting trans and queer populations? Looking at aging, And why aren’t people looking at, like, trans people, queer people growing old? What do we do when we need assisted-living facilities or need to be in community and have disability and medical needs? And speaking of that, disability is one of the big focuses and also looking at immigrants, right? Yes.
Shane: So we’re looking at refugees. We’re also looking at gig work, we’re looking at economic empowerment. We also work on disability and neurodiversity and climate change and other intersectional issues that often aren’t spoken about, like detention centers, or using gaming in order to create solidarity amongst LGBTIQ people. Yeah.
Kayley: Yeah, I attended your gaming session at ILGA World in California.
Kayley: You just briefly touched on and we just talked on immigration, but did you want to say anything about being an immigrant here?
Shane: It’s definitely a very interesting identity being an immigrant in Bangkok, because there is a lot of misunderstanding of what an immigrant is in this city and in this country specifically. But I think there’s also a lot of xenophobia and racism here and I think that’s been a difficult journey for me. You do identify as Desi Thai. That is part of your immigrant identity. Can you briefly talk on that? Yeah, absolutely. I think Desi is essentially a South Asian identity. And because I’ve lived in Thailand my entire life, I call myself Thai Indian. So that’s essentially my identity. So it’s been interesting because with xenophobia, I don’t think a lot of people see me here as Thai. And then when I go back home, a lot of people don’t see me there as Indian.
Kayley: So you’re kind of between cultures
Shane: A little bit kind of nomadic.
Kayley: Activists in Thailand have been fighting a long time for gender recognition on identity documents, specifically being able to change your gender markers, but also names. And that has included a movement to include a gender-neutral or third gender kind of option on the IDs. Can you talk about that?
Shane: Absolutely. So it is a lot to break it, to really break it down. The movement has been, in a very ridiculous manner, overwhelmed by binary trans people who have removed from the draft gender “X” markers. And that was dropped right after the only nonbinary group….
Kayley: Spilling some tea! [spills tea on the ground]
Shane: Spilling some tea, spilling some tea here. I love that. And it was right after the only nonbinary group that exists in Bangkok essentially was removed. And it’s frustrating because you see all of these binary trans people who are actively saying that they are supportive of nonbinary people, but essentially they are not doing anything to give us the rights and give us the marker that we are absolutely asking for. You know, a gender “X” marker is such an important thing, not only for nonbinary people, but also binary trans people who want those gender markers, like trans masculine people. A lot of trans masculine people want those markers, but why are we not getting it? And there is no clear answer for that because they are not willing to give us a clear answer. And I am not willing to stand around and just listen to this thing that it’s like a consolation prize here’s a gender recognition law that we’re just going to give you, but you can’t ask for more and we’re going to give it to you without the gender x marker.
Kayley: I remember I was in, I think it was IDAHOT event. IDAHOT [The International Day Against Homophobia, Biphobia and Transphobia]?
Shane: Yeah, IDAHOT.
Kayley: And they had like you could pose in like the gender marker. And at the time the advocates were pretty unified around having a gender-neutral one. Yes. And I took a photo with it and that’s kind of unity among the groups has shifted. Has shifted. Very unfortunate.
Shane: It is very unfortunate because I think a lot of intersex people and a lot of nonbinary people really want the gender X marker and it’s a big group, it’s a big group of people that want it. Right? But the fact that we’ve completely removed it out of the draft after putting it in is mind-blowing.
Kayley: I have heard that there is a new draft that might be circulated?
Shane: Hopefully soon and hopefully with the gender “X” marker in it.
Kayley: Trans and nonbinary people in Thailand also don’t have legal rights like employment non-discrimination protections or healthcare non-discrimination protections. So is there a push for that and how does that affect trans and nonbinary people right now?
Shane: There is definitely a push for that. There’s a push for including trans-affirming care and gender-affirming care into national health coverage. There is also a push for making very clear what the gender equality law actually stands for, because there’s a lot of gray area right now in a lot of the laws that are already out there on who are included and who aren’t included. Right, but this will clarify things which, [I’m] very excited about.
Kayley: What other causes here in Thailand would you like to see more attention brought to?
Shane: Accessibility is a huge thing. Accessibility, and homelessness is another thing, I think, and financial and economic empowerment is a third thing. And health care. I think these four things are the root, the work that we have to do in the next, at least, decade. And when I say health care, it also means physical and mental health care. So on the Economic empowerment piece, this is such a big question and problem here, I’d say because I would see a lot of trans people here have jobs or have underground economy work and generally there’s this view that trans people are part of society. But there’s this glass ceiling, there’s this very strict “you stay in your role” and don’t have these jobs that are outside of what is expected of trans people.
Shane: Yeah.
Kayley: Do you want to elaborate on that a little bit?
Shane: Sure, I think a lot of trans people, we’ve seen this in a lot of reports in the last decade that there’s a cap; what level of management hierarchy trans people actually get to, and it’s proven that trans people are put in low-paying jobs, and in jobs that are often like freelance jobs and gig work. Right? So I think this is something that we really need to look at — formalizing of a lot of the work that trans people do — and it’s not just that but giving trans people more opportunities to grow internally in their own organizations or in their own companies. It’s really cool to see that there are more trans people that are taking up positions of Diversity and Inclusion management. Like Coco from Food Panda who is doing absolutely incredible work in this space.
Kayley: And speaking of someone who was literally in a transgender beauty pageant in Thailand, I appreciate how trans people here are seen as beautiful, but I’d love there to be other role models than trans pageant winners. Where there could be more role models in business and advocacy and in all these human rights fields and healthcare.
Miss International Queen 2020 National Costumes 
Miss International Queen 2020 Kayley Evening Gown 
Miss International Queen 2020 Winners (Miss Mexico, Miss Thailand, Miss Brazil)
Shane: We’re slowly getting there. It’s a long journey, but it’s not going to happen overnight.
Kayley: So can you name any activists or organizations that really inspire you in your work?
Shane: Yeah, so Nonbinary Thailand, I think, is one of the organizations that have been very inspirational for me. The entire team at Nonbinary Thailand has been absolutely incredible.
Kayley: Can we do a cameo?
Shane: Yeah, we can totally do a cameo. So a little cameo.
[Molly from Nonbinary Thailand joins the interview]
Kayley: Do you want to say hello?
Molly: Hello!
Kayley: So Molly, you work with Nonbinary Thailand? What is that like?
Molly: Yes. So actually it came from a socializing situation where Shane hosted a party for queer people in our queer circle here. I met some people from Nonbinary Thailand on a more official level, and I got to talk to some of them. They were interested. They invited me to join their work as, like, [an] International Relations Unit member, partially because I’m more plugged into other countries, in terms of diversity and various updates and information, rather than here, because I don’t feel as comfortable expressing my identity here. I’m Thai, by the way, and I use They/Them pronouns. I didn’t lead with that.
Kayley: What’s your name?
Molly: I’m Molly. I thought someone said that already [laughs]. Yeah. So, yeah, that’s like, an interesting thing, too, with being Thai, but at the same time not feeling comfortable using all the terms and using all the identity terms, even, like, the Thai version of it. I don’t use those in my Thai life as much. Like, when I go to doctors, they don’t know who I am in that sense at all. Someone got interested in me. A few people got interested in me in Nonbinary Thailand, and that’s how I got involved, which felt very flattering. For us, International Relations Unit, we’re networking with other nonbinary and potentially generally LGBTQIA+. (I can’t decide which version [of the acronym] I’m going to use) around this area, but also potentially around the world to help each other and support each other in this work. But then we could also find support from abroad as well. But Nonbinary Thailand as a whole right now, we’re working, like Shane said before, about pushing a Gender “X” marker. So that’s the plan we have for the upcoming year or two, where we’ll get input from a lot of people, work on the draft, and then see where that goes. Because we can’t depend on, unfortunately, we can’t depend on [gender] binary people.
Shane: Binary trans people.
Molly: Yeah. The “T.” To help us with that, we have to make sure we put in our own sweat and tears and whatever else we need.
Shane: And blood.
Molly: Sure.
Kayley: I think we’re just going to wrap. Yeah. Is there anything else?
Shane: No.I think that’s about it for that section.
Kayley: So we’re going to say goodbye to the viewers for now:
Everyone: Bye!
Kayley: So anyways, thank you, everyone who watched, who joined and if you can, like, share, subscribe, do the thing.
Kayley: I do these interviews as a form of activism and as a form of public service. And I’m not making money from them, but anyone who wants to support this work, it does take money to do. You can support me at Patreon.com/KayleyWhalen. So thank you for everyone who supports me and thanks for joining me.
Molly: Imagine as I self-plug right now.
Shane: Yes! Get the Patreon, make the bank. Bye.
Kayley: Thank you!
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